The Obama Plan:Fiasco Potential is High

The most grotesque outcome I can possibly imagine for the Obama stimulus plan would likely become reality if, on top of a new set of carbon tax guidelines, most of the billions spent on physical infrastructure went to roads and bridges instead of neglected public rail transport. Worryingly, this is exactly the outcome we are headed for now, as an unintentional barbell policy develops where highly sophisticated green advocates shape carbon and climate policy at one end of the stimulus plan, and then the nation’s Governors favor roads and automobile infrastructure over rail at the other end.

Let me try to both clarify and simplify why this would be a fiasco on both an environmental and a macroeconomic level.

First, the lack of sufficient commuter rail and light rail is an enormous macroeconomic problem that the country is struggling with right now, and has been struggling with for years. The lost work hours and wasted capital endured in at least 10-15 large American cities would, if captured, likely represent a non-trivial shift in the nation’s GDP.

I have identified at least five US metro areas where, in my opinion, massive new (or additional) investment in commuter rail and light rail would, over a several year period, reshape downtowns, attract and organize real estate development, and capture lost work hours. They are: Seattle, SF Bay, LA-Orange-SD Counties, Dallas-Ft Worth, and Miami. Notice that four of these are in the West, the portion of the United States that saw most of its greatest population growth during the age of the automobile. Essentially, post-war growth. While all of these cities have made good starts already with some form of rail, it would serve the country well to throw not just billions, but hundreds of billions at all five.

On an environmental level it is nothing less than absurd to entertain sweeping new carbon and climate legislation if we are not going to get cars off the road. Higher fuel efficiency is a worthy goal. But higher fuel efficiency cars make little difference if they join each morning the millions of vehicles stuck in traffic jams across the country, idling their engines.

The value proposition of commuter and light rail is so powerful, on so many different levels, that I cannot understand why it’s not in the Number One position in current discussions of the Obama plan. It should be above Carbon and Climate issues, Solar and Wind issues, vehicle standards issues, and certainly well above Road and Bridge issues. The only comparable investment theme I find in the proposed stimulus plan relates to the Grid. We will indeed need a new Grid to feed power from new sources of utility grade solar and wind, into electrified public rail transport.

The Obama team appears suddenly quite confused on a number of levels, as we approach the inauguration. For example, if one agrees we’re in a liquidity trap and that Keynesian policy holds the answer, then Tax Cuts should be almost completely off the table. They’ll do nothing. Tax cuts–again, if you believe we are in a deflationary liquidity trap–are nothing more than the fiscal equivalent of cutting interest rates.

More importantly, while Obama has sounded the correct economic goal when saying he wants investments that have large, back-end payoffs, there is simply no competition from investment in roads and bridges when compared to rail transport.

The problem the country faces right now is that we already invested in the wrong things. Wrong things have little sustainable payoff. We invested in Houses and Cars, and did so for decades.  But houses and cars are really just tools that are supposed to set us up to do the larger work. In the United States the car and the home became economic fetishes. Alot of the country now lives in a home that’s too big, in a town too far from work.  Continuing to invest in this structure is crazy, given that oil prices will be sky-high again in the near future. Politically, however, it will be difficult for the nation’s Governors to do otherwise, and therein lies a problem.

-Gregor

  • First paragraph, "roads and bridges and neglected public rail" should read "vs. neglected public rail", right? Part of the problem, no doubt, is the desire to spend quickly. There are many more road and bridge proposals in backlog from years when we didn't see rail as such a priority, and many of these projects are easier to implement, vs. right-of-way expansion issues of rail. That doesn't make it right, tho!
  • I completely disagree that the value proposition of commuter and light rail is powerful. Do you know how much they cost? BART is example #1. It loses $100 million+ a year. As someone who has tried and forgone a system that COSTS AS MUCH AS DRIVING and yet sucks another 1 hour+ a day out of my schedule, I violently disagree with your thesis about rail being the answer. Throwing away public money on works projects and additional government bureaucracies that work far less well than distributed systems governed by market forces is a really bad idea. Nothing will get us to a bigger deficit and national weakness faster.
    I'd much rather see a policy shift that takes the existing, flexible, familiar transportation infrastructure and puts into place a reasonable mid-term plan to shift it to electric-based technologies. So I still support grid investments. But I'd much rather see improvement in our vehicles that still allows people flexibility in their transportation. I can go anywhere in my car. I can only go the few places that BART takes me, and it doesn't even do that good a job at that.
  • gregor.us
    Hi. Let's assume BART loses as you say 100 million per year. Question: how many trips are taken on BART in one year, and let's remove your personal experience or preference from the assesement of public transport's efficacy. Do you know how many trips BART provides, annually?

    Also, how did you arrive at the calculation that riding on BART costs as much as driving? Do you mean in simple dollar terms to you, personally? Could you do that calculation for me? I would appreciate it.

    Thanks in advance.

    G
  • BillSeitz
    There's some research showing lousy energy-per-passenger-mile performance of real-world systems, once you take into account low off-hour usage, feeder systems, etc.

    http://ecoworld.com/features/tag/light-rail/
    http://www.caranddriver.com/buying_guide/toyota...
  • gregor.us
    Thankyou for those links. O'Toole's work features prominently in both of those articles. This weekend I've been reading his work, as it happens. I'm trying to figure out if he is a Pragmatist and is doing good work or if he is skewing his findings to fit the agendas of the politically oriented organizations he has associated with. I've not come to a conclusion yet.

    I will say this: advocates of public transport investment and detractors of public transport investment both routinely skew their economic analysis to support their views.

    My take is that a comprehensive and neutral analysis, that takes into account a fair amount of externalities--like improvement to a city's GDP and air quality--will show that public transport investment is a "very good" investment to make.

    I'm not rigid about Light Rail cars, for example, vs electrified busses. etc. On that smaller comparison however I can tell you that commuters hate electrified buses as they are totally unreliable time-wise and commuters always assess the prospects of rail first as rail while also unreliable at least does not (generally) fight car traffic.

    G
  • Agree. First of all, you have to be skeptical of anything published on EcoWorld, as editor Ed Ring is a global warming critic who generously seeds anti-green propaganda into legit green news collected from elsewhere. Highly suspect carbon fuels industry funds this site. And naturally Car & Driver is a little biased, but at least that is up front in their title! O'Toole, the author of these articles, is a Senior Fellow at the Cato Institute, which also gets a lot of funding from the carbon boys. The articles don't cite sources, and that makes me suspicious. Linking back to O'Toole's Cata Institute report, we find that he gets his average car occupancy rate from a 2001 census survey, and bases his "calculations" of energy & CO2 comparisons with mass transit on that. What's wrong with that? Well, the census table he references breaks it down by type of trip, not by mile. For commuting, the survey says 1.14 persons/car. Social and Recreational trips have 2.03 people/car, and shopping is in between. The average by type of trip is the 1.6 per/car O'Toole uses, not the average by mile. And that's all based on just asking people what they think, not actual measurements. Good stats are a little hard to find, but a 2008 comprehensive direct observation measurement in the Richmond, VA district shows an average of 1.14 persons/car for all types of trips! I think it likely that what is true in Richmond is true in most of the rest of the country. So, clearly, O'Toole is picking stats and making his own "calculations" to get the results he wants, and passing it off as research.
  • Sorry, forgot to put in the links:
    The Richmond VA vehicle occupancy report is at http://cli.gs/XX6jn1
    O'Toole's so called "research" report is at http://cli.gs/VEqNWS
    The 2001 Census survey is at nhts.ornl.gov/2001/pub/STT.pdf
    And in 3rd sentence in prior comment I meant to say "I highly suspect", not "Highly suspect"...
  • gregor.us
    Yes. I have read enough now at reason.org and especially O'Toole's study Rail Disasters to conclude that his study is absurd. As one Tweeter pointed out yesterday, not only was O'Toole's 2005 study contorted and wrong in 2005, but it became spectacularly wrong over the next 3 years.

    As I have said elsewhere, I feel favorable towards the Libertarians but they fall into ditches as they heroically wave ideological banners. Public Transport has always been a blind spot for the Libertarians. They fall down starting with the public review land-taking process, and then go even more wobbly from there on in.

    It's as though Libertarians have no conceptual way to handle the history of public works in Western history.

    G
  • JackTar
    "that takes into account a fair amount of externalities--like improvement to a city's GDP and air quality--will show that public transport investment is a "very good" investment to make."

    Isn't the quantification of externalities extremely subjective, like "goodwill" on a balance sheet?
  • Excellent post, Gregor. You should write about non-oil stuff more, for those of us who are wonkishly challenged.
  • Comox52
    "The value proposition of commuter and light rail is so powerful, on so many different levels, that I cannot understand why it’s not in the Number One position in current discussions of the Obama plan. It should be above Carbon and Climate issues"

    I understand your confusion on this one all too well. I reiterate my position on Carbon derivative markets, they are all about bankers making money and much easier to sell to an uneducated public than, "It's time to loose the car, move into a city apt, and take the bus" .

    I agree with your general concept, I think it was a good post!. However, you are being logical and trying to actually solve the energy problems, Obama must satisfy voters in 2012 and all the lobbyists who have supported him since 2006. We must understand that he is not there to fix our world. He is there to hold onto power and play out that great compromise we call democracy.
  • Light rail will solve the crisis in the middle east? End the war in Afghanistan and Iraq? End terrorism? Solve the explosive growth of government? Change the policies that are removing the rights of citizens? Cure the deficit? Solve the general malaise and distrust of our leaders? Social Security issues? The inevitable inflation looming? The lack of educational resources in enemy states that leads to terrorism? Homeland Security?

    Really? Light Rail???

    I've been a huge proponent of light rail, having lived in both Vancouver, CA and Denver, CO. I'd love to see it here in Indianapolis as well... but if you're asking me to wish for Obama to make this his NUMBER ONE position, I'm at a loss for words.
  • gregor.us
    but if you're asking me to wish for Obama to make this his NUMBER ONE position, I'm at a loss for words.

    The number one position for the Stimulus plan. Not the number one position for the Obama Presidency. The post is pretty clearly talking about the stimulus plan, yes?

    G
  • So you believe the economic impact of light rail versus reducing the size of government, reducing the tax burden on companies and ending the wars will have a greater influence on stimulating the economy? Still stymied (with respect).
  • gregor.us
    Hi. The post has a particular context. That context is a Keynesian spending plan. In that context, I advocate spending on public rail transport as the number one priority. Yes.

    In other posts, I have dealt with the broader issues you cite. Whether or not a Keynesian plan was/is coming. Defense spending. Tax cuts.

    In an October post, for example, I talked about what I saw as the inevitability of a Keynesian Blast.

    I fully accept that whether or not a Keynesian approach makes for a lively debate. However, this particular post is well down the road from any broader discussion of the Presidency, or even other economic policy questions like tax cuts. I am only dealing with Spending.

    But yes. As I did reference in the post, if one believes a Keynesian approach is the remedy here, then one can't believe that Tax cuts either personal or corporate will accomplish anything at all. But that's less a position that I take (though I might) and more a definitional tenet of the Keynesian approach.

    Imagine that it's 8 years ago and the central economic plan on the table is a Tax cut. Then whether I agree with that or not, I might write a post about how that Tax cut should be structured. That's what I'm doing here. There is a huge Keynesian plan on the table.

    It looks to me like we're going to get a mix of Keynesian spending and Friedman-esque (Milton) tax cuts. I'm neutral on this mix.

    Let's consider a third possibility: if one is a fan of Kondratief then none of this will work because we are fated to enter a Deflationary black hole, a Winter that we cannot escape!

    Best,
    G
  • You sound like that dude with the pony tail in Good Will Hunting. :)
  • gregor.us
    No, I don't think so.

    I'm just a guy who is watching his government about to spend a trillion dollars, and saying "look if the plan is to spend, then here is where it should be spent."

    G
  • Was honestly kidding. It's an interesting debate and surely the ripple effect of light rail implementation is well beyond what people expect. I tire of folks talking of the 'expense' of light rail - it's an investment.

    My disagreement (hopefully respectful) is that I doubt the ripple would rise above some of the other issues that are facing our economy right now. War, security, terror... and economy are very intertwined, perhaps more than anyone would like to believe.
  • n many ways, I think Obama's hands are tied on this one as a result of timing more so than desire. I think we'll see some more conventional "Road and Bridge" projects in the first year, and I can live with that. Fact is, we aren't going to end our reliance on cars overnight, so maintenance and modest improvements on our existing infrastructure is a prudent move. And we desperately need to put people to work.

    I expect to see more substantial big thinking projects in the following years. Changes to the Grid aren't going to happen overnight, but they will happen in the next five to ten years, and must begin to lay that groundwork now. Light rail can make denser development more attractive, and once again make walking the principal form of transportation in older, more urban communities. Suburban sprawl is killing our cities, and our heavy reliance on the automobile is unsustainable, so we have no choice but to change the way we now live.
  • One particularly annoying factoid about train/rail in SF: The Amtrak hub is in in the East Bay. There is no Amtrak in SF proper. So if you'd like to take the train to Portland, for example, you need to take a bus from downtown to Emeryville. The BART does not go to the Amtrak directly.

    And then the train takes 17 and a half hours, which is approximately twice as long as driving the 634 miles. Japanese bullet trains operate at over 150 miles/hour, which would make it a five hour trip.
  • This is the kind of thing I'm on about with the regional thinking, or in this case mega-regional thinking. Local rail doesn't connect with interstate rail. Local doesn't connect with other nearby local. Local service only reaches some of the suburban niches.

    I get the prioritized, do-what-you-can-when-you-can approach, but it's foolhardy, IMO, to approach something as chiseled-in-stone as rail without a plan that works from the mega-region to the locality.

    To some extent, the DC/Boston axis has some level of defacto organization because almost all of it runs on shared lines. The real opportunity for problems in SF is that each entity lays its own track.
  • I agree, which is why we have the mess we do in the Bay Area now. Who thought it was a good idea to *not* have a Amtrak terminus in SF?
  • It is a great annoyance, but I think it's for cause. Like all of the west coast, SF is not an easy environment for rail. The issue is a route north. The interstate routes tend to be from the boom time of rail which was, oh, a century ago. So the options for a through line in SF were not great.
    I'm pretty sure that the "coastal" rail line pre-dates either of the SF bridges.

    I really think it's more the way BART was implemented, ie half-assed. I see that BART now makes it all the way to SFO which it didn't in my day. Nor was there the Pittsburgh or Pleasanton lines. But I have to ask: are Pleasanton and Pittsburgh more important to link than San Rafael?

    It's the difference between a train line and a transit system. I say, if you're going to spend money on rail, please make it part of an overall, interconnected system.
  • gregor.us
    Indeed. Although I very much want to see high-speed long-distance rail in the US (and especially on East and West Coasts), because of the current financial situation I am currently advocating the highest-impact rail investments first, which I judge to be commuter rail and light rail. These would hit the population at its highest density levels.

    However, from a social/cultural perspective and especially wrt to influencing perception, I do regard high-speed rail as an ongoing advertisment for Rail transport in general. So while a more reductive economic analysis of very expensive high-speed rail might suggest that "it's not worth it compared to potential savings", a broader analysis would have to include the value of moving the public to a greater sense of pride in rail. A successful high speed rail line running from Seattle to San Diego would be enormously expensive but the impact on public perception could capture enormous, future savings in moving other parts of the country in this direction.

    To wit: some of the dissappointments in Acela service on the East Coast probably did damage, overall, to public perception. Which no doubt continues to add to complacency, disinterest in rail transport.

    Tough nut to crack, yes?

    This week, in a series of blog posts on this subject, I hope to tackle some of these perception issues--and I will use Los Angeles as one of my examples.

    G
  • I agree with your prioritization. I was chiming in with a peeve, where high speed long distance rail could satisfy.

    I will read your LA posts with interest.
  • The Obama plan is just fine and dandy.
  • ShortBusTrader
    blah blah blah blah blah. You say "I have been pounding the table", "they should do ...", "Why don't they do ..."

    Get off your lazy arse and do something about it, rather than just write blog posts about it. If you have all the answers and all the politicians are too stupid to agree with you, then you need to get out and do something about it..

    Or you could just keep on writing your little blog posts and see how that works.

    Do you really think a blog post is going to change the world ??? Get over it already.
  • gregor.us
    Thanks so much for your thoughtful comment in which you hold yourself to the same standards you advocate. Well done.
  • Neil Macdonald
    The light rail , cargo-rail and heavy rail are all necessary ingredients just so long as they are "purpose built".. However I do see potential problems with a full set of after-build employment issues. Specifically, if the cities and states mentioned do each as a "public" entity either through expansion of existing municipal agencies or by creating new ones. Unfortunately, we'll all wind up with an expensive, if inefficient, burden of bloated unionized operating staffs and "managerial boards" running them. All dependent upon the public trough to keep them working as fares never fully pay for the construction, their maintenance or operation.

    Most public transit, ports and airports are subjected to huge politically sponsored job entitlement programs which beget inefficiency and subsequent higher costs. The Boston "Big Dig" construction overruns would be a recent example. Also let's not forget the continuing travails of Amtrak...and in Seattle the recent failed "Monorail" boondoggle which saddled the Seattle taxpayer to pay for a system which was never built.

    If cost is no object... and that is both accepted and understood.. then go for it. Personally I'd prefer higher cost oversight checks and balances, with rewards for within budget and on-time deliverables.
  • gregor.us
    No doubt. Thankyou for your observations. They are spot on.

    I would lean more constructive however and use what I regard to be the more numerous examples of public rail transport success than the boondoggles you have correctly identified.

    LA and San Diego light rail lines are both new, and a huge success. (As I have remarked previously, one cannot expect rail in Western cities to be a success in the first year as they are laid down on top of a hostile grid built over 50 years to serve the automobile. So it takes a few years).

    My view is that the recapture of lost work hours, the aggregate savings on oil, the organization of future real estate development along new rail lines--all of these dwarf the costs of bloated, unionized workforces.

    When I lived in London, it was clear to me the British did not understand the economic value proposition of public transport. In my view it is as follows: even if it is free, you are still saving capital in the aggregate. So measuring revenue from fares against running costs is, in my opinion, and incorrect valuation method though I DO think that valuation has to be done, watched, assessed, and should be managed and improved as a standalone metric for efficiency.

    Compare the economic advantage to London were the entire underground free, to a London where the underground does not exist at all. I would suggest the GDP of London would collapse without the Underground. That's how stark I think the economic proposition is.

    G
  • Yes, indeed! We have been in Europe mostly for the last 3 years and the difference in mass transit is staggering. The U.S. is so far behind in this area.

    "Alot of the country now lives in a home that’s too big, in a town too far from work"... crazy, given that oil prices will be sky-high again"

    Why is common sense so uncommon?
  • Spencer
    Gregor,

    What are your thoughts on congestion pricing as a means generate revenue for public transit, decrease wasted fuel from excess traffic, and encourage people to seek alternate modes of transit?
  • gregor.us
    I think congestion pricing works best in a city like London where availability of rail transport is broad, and alot of people were making discretionary trips that simply had to be pared back. So it's worked well in London and I think it would work well in NYC and I'm sorry they didn't pass it there.

    i think it would be harsh however to impose it on cities that are still very light on public transport. As much as I pound the table for public transport and want to stop investing in cars, I do priortize being realistic also.

    Basically, once a city achieved sufficient rail transport penetration, then I think you could go to congestion pricing.
  • Bosquecito
    New Mexico's "Rail Runner" system just opened an extension connecting Santa Fe to Albuquerque. It continues south to Belen. Ridership has been great!

    I have been a huge, but unpopular, supporter of the project.
  • gregor.us
    Good for you. I have followed that project with alot of interest.

    Remember, in the West, your average person will look at the landscape and "correctly" come to the initial conclusion that public transport just can't work. As I have remarked previously, once it gets introduced the landscape starts to *slowly* change. We've seen this in LA. And we'll see it in NM.

    G
  • Have you seen the Car-go tram in Dresden? VW has a large factory in the middle of town, with these freight light-rail cars handling logistics. Light-rail is just a platform, one thats not entirely used to its full potential.

    CarGo Tram Dresden Ausfahrt VW
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-d5yiKLdT8
  • BSR
    I will go well beyond this post: If US had a good high speed rail network as they have in Europe and Japan, it would have changed our competitive landscape significantly, greatly reduced our dependence on foreign oil which in turn would have avoided a lot of our middle eastern entanglements that in turn caused this epidemic of terrorism that is eating this nation alive with all the costs of war and homeland security.

    Not having a good rail network is same as what is happening to US due to lack of good health care policy and weak education system. It is dragging us down to third world status (with a huge military and nukes)
  • gregor.us
    Oh, I completely agree with you. And you'll find strands of all your points in previous posts of mine, starting last Autumn. Yeah, absolutely.

    I have laid out a priority of rail investment, however, that goes like this: Light Rail (for downtowns) and Commuter Rail first. The reason is to impact the greatest quantity of daily riders. Then comes High Speed Rail and then heavy rail for goods transport.

    For example, I don't think California should do High Speed rail before it does ALOT more in all 3 main metro areas: SF, LA, SD.

    G
  • zebra
    When I lived in LA I became convinced that southern Californians have smog-damaged brains. Except for the western fringe near the ocean, the whole city smells of auto exhaust. To LA people, public transport is buses for Mexicans. The only way to sell public transport to them is to convince them that it will get OTHER PEOPLE off the highways. They can continue to drive as always, but with less traffic.
  • gregor.us
    The source of the resistance and fear of public transport in LA comes from its history as the first suburban city. If you go back and study the history, you know, the picture of a rose with snow-capped mountains in the background and the ethic of the backyard and lawn, you'll find it was all marketed as Urban Homesteading as frankly up through the 80's that structure maintained. But the population growth imo reached critical mass in the last 20 years, and we saw more apartment blocks go up, etc.

    I'd like LA to have Barcelona like street rail, going down grassy medians.

    G
  • I've been following your pro-rail thread for a while, and I thought I'd chime in with some thoughts.

    When I talk rail with people, I tend to get a lot of "it could only work in the Northeast where there is a European level of density." That, to me, is spot on. No doubt, the greater NYC metro could use more and better rail service, but the real gain, IMO, is when you can develop regional systems that link large and small cities and reflect the current, de-centralized economy.

    Take the NYC region, for example. The cities of Stamford and Norwalk, CT have exploded with corporate HQs. But the MetroNorth system is still essentially designed to bring people to and from NYC. One of my clients in Norwalk is in a large corporate park directly opposite a station on the Norwalk/Danbury spur line. The park includes 5 or 6 buildings, each 6-stories or so. Many thousands of people work in the complex, but virtually none commute by train for these two reasons:

    1 - A not-particularly-large river separates the train station and the corporate park, and there is no pedestrian bridge.
    2 - The spur line is only a single track, so in the morning virtually all of the trains are southbound ("in-bound") while the local commute flow from the main line would be northbound ("out-bound").

    This is just one corporate park in one formerly-bedroom community where there is some level of rail, but it still serves the socio-economic structure from when I was a child.
  • gregor.us
    Thankyou. I am more inclusive and while I agree 100% with everything you say, I feel it's important to note that Western cities have indeed shown they can retro-fit to public transport. As long as one has patience. For example, I was in Los Angeles when both the subway started in early 1990's and then saw Light Rail. the universal sentiment before the subway was that it was a waste. Same too with Light Rail. Have you seen the ridership numbers now, however? Or the way in which real estate development has been organized along these routes? The ridership numbers are off the charts. And we have seen smart development in places like Pasadena, at the end of the line.

    I want it all. I'd love to see Metro North go further too.

    Cheerio.

    G
  • akguy
    Great post, all too true. Seattle needs better rail but will likely appoint groups to study and years will slip by. We need to "hub" up if to deal with the future..........

    akguy
  • gregor.us
    I'm glad to see that Seattle has begun. They have the Sounder from Tacoma, and they have struck a good first vein I think in the new light rail going in due South from downtown. I was also pleased to see that, on balance, the local populace "sort of" realized that a whole new round of investment in the central auto artery was dumb. (some may disagree with my characterization).

    Regardless, Seattle is correctly identified as having a HUGE traffic problem. Uggh. The lost hours of work...

    G
  • great, great post - hopefully the administration reads it
  • gregor.us
    I harangue them. I really do. I have a contact on their energy team.

    I try!

    G
  • Great post! There definitely needs to be a deeper strategic look into how all the stimulus money will be spent. I like your barbell analogy.

    Here in the Bay Area there is always talks of expanding BART, an expansion deeper into the 'burbs would really stimulate the local economy.
  • AB,

    I know for fact that Marin County refused to have BART back in the 70s. San Mateo, too? Also, Is it true that BART and the San Jose systems don't connect? So I've heard, and that is SPECTACULARLY stupid.
  • I'm not too familiar with San Jose light-rail, but I know the intent is to get BART into San Jose via the Fremont line.
  • gregor.us
    Glad you liked the post. I see tons of room for light rail/street rail in the East Bay. And yes, BART can go ALOT further. But you know what, I am amazed at how enduring is the resistance to transport from suburban Californians. This was true when I lived in Los Angeles, and even the SF Bay.

    FWIW: I have a contact on the Obama energy team and I harangue them In a friendly way) over this stuff on a fairly constant basis.
  • Yeah there is a lot of resistance to the expansion. The growth in the Dublin/Pleasanton area has a lot to do with that being the most recent BART expansion area.

    Downtown San Francisco is suppose to double it's number of skyscrapers south of Market - these people will need places to live, BART is a fantastic option for those commuters.

    Less to do with stimulus, and more to do with convenience - the possible Muni Metro Chinatown light-rail extension, and Geary st extensions would be awesome :)
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